Saturday, August 4, 2012

West Asian Y-DNA Haplogroup Q - Turkish or Autochthonous Origins?

Genographic Project Y-DNA Q Migration Route

Introduction

Y-DNA Haplogroup Q is defined by the M242 marker and is upstream to Haplogroup P-M45, making it the sister Haplogroup of R-M207, which populates much of West Eurasia. According to the Genographic Project, Haplogroup Q-M242 is between 15-20,000 years old, with the location invariably being placed around North Eurasia.

The frequency of Haplogroup Q largely matches the migration path outlined in the maps shown opposite. However, the presence of haplogroup Q in more southwestern portions of Asia has sparked the curiosity of genealogists and observers alike. In current literature, the presence of Haplogroup Q1a2-M25 specifically in Iran is cited as "Central Asian" influence. [1]

In an attempt to conclusively uncover the origins of Haplogroup Q-M242 in West Asia, the Y-STR haplotype variation of West, Central and South Asian Q1a-MEH2 and Q1b-M378 are visualised and analysed with genealogical tools.


Method

The data for this investigation are gathered from various Family Tree DNA (FTDNA) projects and studies, [1,2,6-11] with the concise list shown in the References section below.

Only results presenting at least 16 Y-STR's were considered. Modifications were made as necessary on certain STR markers (particularly Y-GATA H4) to correct nomenclature differences. Urasin's YPredictor was used when Y-SNP information from studies were inadequate (e.g. no SNP's upstream of Q-M242 tested).

Samples follow a constant naming convention, with _n and _yQP_n suffixes indicating they were obtained from studies and FTDNA Projects respectively. The following populations were included;

FTDNA Y-DNA Q Migration Route
Irn = Iranian (Unspecified ethnicity), Azr_Tal = Talysh from the Republic of Azerbaijan, Trk/Tur = Anatolian Turkish, Ptn = Pashtun from Afghanistan, Ind = Indian (Unspecified ethnicity/caste), Irq = Iraqi (Unspecified ethnicity), Kzk = Kazakh, Pak = Pakistani (Unspecified ethnicity), Uzb = Uzbek, Tjk = Tajik, Haz = Hazara, Npl = Nepali, Arm = Armenian, Geo = Georgian, UAE = Emirati Arab, Irn_Arab = Iranian Arab (Khuzestan), Irn_Mzn = Iranian Mazandarani (Mazandaran), Irn_Bkt = Iranian Bakhtiari

Once collation was complete, modal haplotypes of inferred clusters were found if necessary. Additionally, clusters were inferred from haplotrees that were created. The Most Recent Common Ancestor (tMRCA) of choice clusters were calculated by comparing two modals from the first pair of intra-cluster branches. Due to the STR panels tested in the concerned papers (Y-Filer order 1) McGee's Y-Utility was the only immediately viable choice (infinite allele mutation model, 75% Probability, 25 year/generation).


Working Hypothesis

An indeterminable mix of recent (>1500ybp) and prehistoric Y-DNA Q1a-MEH2 and Q1b-M378 lines exist in the region with some instances of close haplotype sharing between West, South and Central Asia.


Limitations Of This Investigation

  • Although the number of STR panels tested has increased gradually over the past decade, 16 is not considered a "confident sell" in the genealogy world. 
  • Additionally, the difference in STR panels used meant some informative populations, such as the Makrani, Baloch, Burusho and Parsis of Pakistan were not included due to an overlap of only 12 STR's.
  • Y-STR's from several crucial populations, such as the Qashqai, Iraqi Turkoman and Azeri's from the Republic of Azerbaijan could not be found.
  • There is, of course, the great debate concerning STR mutation rates. At the time of writing I have not observed any clear consensus in the genealogy regarding this topic. The applicability of Nordtvedt's Generations series to this entry is minimal due to an STR overlap issue, hence the decision to use McGee's tool instead.
  • As discussed later, the number of Y-SNP's tested across the cited studies are insufficient to draw firm conclusions.
  • Finally, sample size is an issue. The dataset is dominated by Iranian or Afghan samples because these papers were released at times (i.e. 2008-present) where the 17 STR Y-Filer panels became mainstream. 

Y-DNA Q1a Phylogenetic Tree
Haplogroup Q1a STR Results

Four informative clusters were inferred;

  • Cluster A (DYS19=15, DYS389i=12) is largely restricted to Afghan Pashtuns, with Ptn_1-4 all sharing having a MRCA with their modal (and therefore likely founding haplotype) between 900-450 ybp. This result is consistent with the dominance of Turkic-speaking dynasties in this time period. 
  • Cluster B (DYS385a=14) has a large geographical spread from Turkey through to Iran, the United Arab Emirates, Afghanistan, Nepal and Kazakhstan. The most immediate observation is the close haplotype sharing (3-step mutation, 14/17) between Kzk_1 and Irn_4, with an estimated MRCA at 900 ybp. This result, together with the general area covered, again indicates this cluster should at the very least be broadly associated with Central Asian Turks.
  • Cluster C (DYS392=16, DYS389ii=28, DYS448=22) is interesting because its' members are exclusively Iranian and belong to Haber et al.'s Influences of history, geography, and religion on genetic structure: the Maronites in Lebanon. [2] Most of the Iranians bearing Haplogroup Q-M242 in their sample were from West Iran, where Iran's Azeri population happens to dominate the northern region. The regional exclusivity of this cluster combined with the very recent MRCA (900 ybp) lead me to suspect Haber and his associates sampled a locale in West Iran that underwent genetic drift, explaining the +10% Q-M242 that is otherwise not seen in other studies. [1] However, the MRCA too suggests these Iranian men's paternal ancestor was also associated with Medieval Turks despite the result in it's entirety not representing West Iran sufficiently.
  • Cluster D (DYS439=11, DYS437=15) mirrors Cluster B's distribution across the region but the divisions are more consistent with geography than other variables (i.e. Anatolian Turk and Armenian, Hazara together). 


Haplogroup Q1b STR Results

Five informative clusters were inferred;

Y-DNA Q1b Phylogenetic Tree
  • Cluster A (DYS385a=12, DYS439=11, DYS437=15) is, relative to the others, an early offshoot that is highly localised in South-Central Asia. 
  • Cluster B (DYS385a=14) is also localised, found specifically in Iraq and Iran.
  • Cluster C (DYS385a=14, DYS448=20) is twinned with B but appears to have a younger MRCA (925 ybp). Of interest is the wide geographic distribution across Turkey, Iran, India and Kazakhstan. Central Asian Turks once more provide a convenient historical narrative for both the predicted MRCA and spread.
  • Cluster D (DYS385a=15) is again geographically localised, this time in the greater Near-East (Turkey, Iran and Syria). 
  • Cluster E (DYS385a=12, DYS437=15) once more displays geographic localisation in South-Central Asia, specifically among Afghani Pashtuns and a FTDNA Project Pakistani.


SNP's - What Do They Tell Us?

Tabulated Y-DNA Q SNP's for select populations from several studies [1, 3-5] can be viewed in the Vaêdhya Data Sink.

There is, unfortunately, a two-pronged incompatibility issue between the Y-STR analysis and Y-SNP's provided here. Not only is there poor overlap between the populations covered in both sets, but the SNP selections in the four studies cannot do not provide us with a clear picture regarding the presence of Q*-M242(xQ1a-MEH2,xQ1b-M378) Q1a*-MEH2(xQ1a2-M25), Q1a2-M25 and Q1b-M378.

However, the distribution of Q1a3-M346 and Q1b-M378 across the Iranian plateau in contrast with the specificity of Q1a2-M25 in Azeri Iranians and Turkmen (1.6% and 42.6% respectively, although the latter is likely due to genetic drift as discussed here) suggests a strain of the first two lineages is linguistically neutral and preceded the millennia of Turkish dynastic dominance in Iran.

Fortunately, such an inference is indeed supported by the Q1a and Q1b phylogenetic trees shown in this entry. One will note (particularly with Q1b-M378) the distribution is largely geographical rather than covering large swathes of Asian land through a "recent" paternal ancestor.


A comment on Assyrian Q-M242

Although the number of STR markers tested do not allow their inclusion into this research piece, I took the liberty of comparing the sole Assyrian Y-DNA Haplogroup Q-M242 individual from the FTDNA Assyrian Heritage DNA Project to elaborate on their paternal ancestor's ultimate origins.

The Assyrian people are a Neo-Aramaic-speaking ethnic minority native to the land intersecting between Turkey, Iran and Iraq as well as the Mesopotamian basin. Modern Assyrians have (due to their Christian faith and recent historical events) practiced endogamous relationships, making them a genetically distinct group minimally affected by demic movements in the surrounding populations.

The Assyrian Y-DNA Q belongs to the Q1b1a-L245 subclade. As we have observed already, haplogroup Q1b-M378 tends to have a distribution governed more by geography with deeper cluster branches, implying greater diversification time in a given region.

At present, based on the available 10 overlapping STR's, the Assyrian Q1b1a-L245 individual matches Tur_yQP_3 best with a one-step mutation (9/10), placing them deep within Cluster C, the only one without a region-specific distribution. This preliminary evaluation indicates this Assyrian man's paternal ancestor shares Medieval genetic links with Anatolian Turkish, Iranian, Indian and Kazakh men, making a Central Asian Turkish connection likely once more.


Conclusion

Due to the limitations described above, the identification of clusters is more relevant based on their geographic spread. The MRCA calculations shown are simply an extremely rough estimate at the age of a cluster.

However (and fortunately once more), it is very clear that some clusters are determined by geography rather than the sort of "genealogical boon" observed in a few (e.g. Q1a Cluster C's extensive branching despite being young relative to the others).

If one takes the MRCA calculations as a very rough approximation, whilst considering a cluster's ability to supercede regional boundaries, one can estimate that 75.4% (40/53) of the Y-DNA Haplogroup Q1a-MEH2 and 31.4% (11/35) of Y-DNA Haplogroup Q1b-M378 in West, Central and South Asia can be attributed to the Turkish migrations.

In summary, Y-DNA Haplogroup Q1a-MEH2 (likely Q1a2-M25 based on anecdotal SNP evidence) is a convincing Medieval Central Asian Turkish genetic marker based specifically on its' ability to form multi-ethnic clusters in regions with a historical Turkish connection. Q1b-M378, on the other hand, generally displays enough regionalisation and cluster depth to make such an association doubtful at best, with the sole exception being those who belong to the a genetic group highlighted in this entry (Cluster C) with DYS385a=14 and DYS448=20. 

South Central Asian Q1b-M378 appears to be autochthonous whereas any form of Q1a-MEH2 in the region has a strong association with regions intimately connected with the Medieval Turks. The Anatolian highlands and the Iranian plateau, however, appear to be a complicated mix between the two based on the lack of clear distinctions.

The slim presence of Haplogroup Q in India on the other hand, as far as the current data indicates, is almost entirely of Medieval Turkic input, although the Subcontinent's position as a geographic nexus (much like Iran and Turkey) certainly open the possibility for exotic para-haplogroups to also exist there.


Acknowledgement

  • Gratitude is extended to the FTDNA Projects for making their data publicly available. Independent research ventures such as my own would not be possible without their generosity.
  • I would also like to thank Mr. Paul Givargidze, administrator of the Assyrian Heritage, Aramaic and Y-DNA J1* DNA Projects at FTDNA for providing his esteemed support on this research entry.
  • The Y-DNA Haplogroup Q migration route maps are courtesy of the Genographic Project and FTDNA.

Addendum I [5/08/2012]: It has been brought to my attention that Tur_yQP_3, the Assyrian Q1b1a's best match, is in fact an Armenian individual. Although this does not compromise the conclusions reached above, it does serve as a reminder that not everyone in the Republic of Turkey is an ethnic Turk!
Addenum II [6/08/2012]: A recent exchange on a forum highlighted the likelihood of several Turk_yQP samples being Armenian rather than Anatolian Turkish. As above, the findings shouldn't impede too greatly on what has been discussed in this entry.


References

1. Grugni V, Battaglia V, Hooshiar Kashani B, Parolo S, Al-Zahery N, et al. (2012) Ancient Migratory Events in the Middle East: New Clues from the Y-Chromosome Variation of Modern Iranians. PLoS ONE 7(7): e41252. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.

2. Haber M, Platt DE, Badro DA, Xue Y, El-Sibai M, Bonab MA, Youhanna SC, Saade S, Soria-Hernanz DF, Royyuru A, Wells RS, Tyler-Smith C, Zalloua PA; Genographic Consortium. Influences of history, geography, and religion on genetic structure: the Maronites in Lebanon. Eur J Hum Genet. 2011 Mar;19(3):334-40. Epub 2010 Dec 1.

3. Al-Zahery N, Semino O, Benuzzi G, Magri C, Passarino G, Torroni A, Santachiara-Benerecetti AS. Y-chromosome and mtDNA polymorphisms in Iraq, a crossroad of the early human dispersal and of post-Neolithic migrations. Mol Phylogenet Evol. 2003 Sep;28(3):458-72.

4. Abu-Amero KK, Hellani A, González AM, Larruga JM, Cabrera VM, Underhill PA. Saudi Arabian Y-Chromosome diversity and its relationship with nearby regions. BMC Genet. 2009 Sep 22;10:59.

5. Cinnioğlu C, King R, Kivisild T, Kalfoğlu E, Atasoy S, Cavalleri GL, Lillie AS, Roseman CC, Lin AA, Prince K, Oefner PJ, Shen P, Semino O, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Underhill PA. Excavating Y-chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia. Hum Genet. 2004 Jan;114(2):127-48. Epub 2003 Oct 29.

6. Gokcumen Ö, Gultekin T, Alakoc YD, Tug A, Gulec E, Schurr TG. Biological ancestries, kinship connections, and projected identities in four central Anatolian settlements: insights from culturally contextualized genetic anthropology. Am Anthropol. 2011;113(1):116-31.

7. Roewer L, Willuweit S, Stoneking M, Nasidze I. A Y-STR database of Iranian and Azerbaijanian minority populations. Forensic Sci Int Genet. 2009 Dec;4(1):e53-5. Epub 2009 Jun 5.

8. Dulik MC, Osipova LP, Schurr TG. Y-chromosome variation in Altaian Kazakhs reveals a common paternal gene pool for Kazakhs and the influence of Mongolian expansions. PLoS One. 2011 Mar 11;6(3):e17548.

9. Haber M, Platt DE, Ashrafian Bonab M, Youhanna SC, Soria-Hernanz DF, et al. (2012) Afghanistan's Ethnic Groups Share a Y-Chromosomal Heritage Structured by Historical Events. PLoS ONE 7(3): e34288. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0034288

10. Tenzin Gayden, Alicia M. Cadenas, Maria Regueiro, Nanda B. Singh, Lev A. Zhivotovsky, Peter A. Underhill, Luigi L. Cavalli-Sforza, and Rene J. Herrera. The Himalayas as a Directional Barrier to Gene Flow. Am J Hum Genet. 2007 May; 80(5): 884–894.

11. Lacau H, Bukhari A, Gayden T, La Salvia J, Regueiro M, Stojkovic O, Herrera RJ. Y-STR profiling in two Afghanistan populations. Leg Med (Tokyo). 2011 Mar;13(2):103-8. Epub 2011 Jan 14.

21 comments:

  1. What do you make of the Sicilian Q?

    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/fig_tab/ejhg2008120t1.html#figure-title
    http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/extref/ejhg2008120x1.xls

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  2. Dienekes,

    Nine STR's are presented in those spreadsheets. Not enough to accurately predict Q-M242 subclades, certainly enough to discern relationships with my dataset.

    On the five following STR's, we see generic values that are found in both Q1a and Q1b;

    DYS393=12/13
    DYS391=10/11
    DYS385b=14-16
    DYS389i=12-14
    DYS389ii=28-31

    These values appear to be a "stable" range that defines Y-DNA Haplogroup Q since it is found in both Q1a and Q1b.

    On the other hand, the other STR's (DYS390, DYS19, DYS385, DYS392) have values that are almost completely different from each Cluster I have.

    Based on this, I am very confident those Sicilian Y-DNA Q's belong to an altogether different (or far-removed) demic event than the individuals I have examined from Iraq, Iran, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Nepal or India. That is, one unrelated to the Turkish migrations circa 600 A.D.

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  3. So cluster d is the Ashkenazim group?

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  4. Владимир,

    The Assyrian belonging to Q1b1a-L245 and that subclade's association with the Near-East and Ashkenazi Jews does seem to fall together, yes.

    There is a mismatch between the predicted age of Q1b1a-L245 and My Q1b Cluster D, as the former's MRCA is supposedly 2600ybp while the latter one is younger, despite Q1b1a-L245 (possibly) being a subset of Cluster D here.

    As I mentioned several times in the entry, however, I do not consider the MRCA calculations to be particularly accurate beyond "a few thousand" vs. "many thousands" ybp.

    With that being said, it is quite clear that Q1a-MEH2 in West Asia is a much better Turkish marker than Q1b-M378 is based on geographical distribution alone.

    ReplyDelete
  5. The two addenda make it imperative to re-examine the scenarios examined in the main entry. Any study without proper sampling is useless.

    ReplyDelete
  6. Onur,

    If samples across the board have been mischaracterised, then certainly.

    However, the addenda only concern Y-DNA Q individuals from Turkey that are part of public FTDNA projects, of which there are only a handful included here.

    That Trk_1 (Gokcumen et al. sample) sits in the same broad C+D cluster as the Tur_tQP_n individuals in the Q1b phylogenetic tree supports their general placing and does not rule out these Armenian-Turkish Q1b-M378 individuals receiving their paternal lines from a Medieval mutual source as the Iranians, Kazakhs and Indians.

    Also note that the Addenda are only significant in the case of the Assyrian Q1b1a-L245 who was analysed seperately given the poor STR overlap (10).

    ReplyDelete
  7. DMXX,

    There are weak points in your hypothesis (in addition to the ones you already mentioned). When you assign Turkic ancestry to some Armenians and Assyrians to make your hypothesis work, this makes your hypothesis questionable.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Onur,

    1) The working hypothesis was the following;

    "An indeterminable mix of recent (>1500ybp) and prehistoric Y-DNA Q1a-MEH2 and Q1b-M378 lines exist in the region with some instances of close haplotype sharing between West, South and Central Asia."

    Considering the ultimate origins of Haplogroup Q further east, this is a perfectly reasonable hypothesis. But, you're entitled to your opinion, whatever it may happen to be.

    2) Fixating on the Armenian and (lone) Assyrian, as you are doing, misses the scope of the investigation, which is to ascertain whether any phylogenetic relationship between Q1a and Q1b individuals in West Asia could be established with individuals from other parts of Asia. This was achieved.

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  9. What do you think about the Saraswat Brahmin? Among them is a relatively high percentage of Q1b.

    http://forum.molgen.org/index.php/topic,2852.msg98392.html#msg98392

    ReplyDelete
  10. 1) The working hypothesis was the following;

    "An indeterminable mix of recent (>1500ybp) and prehistoric Y-DNA Q1a-MEH2 and Q1b-M378 lines exist in the region with some instances of close haplotype sharing between West, South and Central Asia."

    Considering the ultimate origins of Haplogroup Q further east, this is a perfectly reasonable hypothesis. But, you're entitled to your opinion, whatever it may happen to be.


    I am referring to your hypothesis as a whole, not just the part you quoted.

    2) Fixating on the Armenian and (lone) Assyrian, as you are doing, misses the scope of the investigation, which is to ascertain whether any phylogenetic relationship between Q1a and Q1b individuals in West Asia could be established with individuals from other parts of Asia. This was achieved.

    But you are doing far more than ascertaining whether any phylogenetic relationship between Q1a and Q1b individuals in West Asia could be established with individuals from other parts of Asia. You are ascribing ages (based on questionable methods) to those phylogenetic relationships and connecting them to historical events. This is the weakest part of your hypothesis, and even you admit that. The Armenian/Assyrian example is a good case in point of that weakness.

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  11. Onur,

    "I am referring to your hypothesis as a whole, not just the part you quoted."

    That was the hypothesis. Re-read the blog entry. The introduction is a parable designed to break readers into a piece of writing.

    "But you are doing far more than ascertaining whether any phylogenetic relationship between Q1a and Q1b individuals in West Asia could be established with individuals from other parts of Asia. You are ascribing ages (based on questionable methods) to those phylogenetic relationships and connecting them to historical events. This is the weakest part of your hypothesis, and even you admit that. The Armenian/Assyrian example is a good case in point of that weakness."

    Again, re-read the blog entry.

    In case you missed it - Which you clearly have - Not only have I plainly stated the limitations of the STR MRCA calculations here, I made clear the MRCA calculations are an "extremely rough estimate" of a cluster's age.

    Moreover, your lack of understanding the blog entry is evident in your use of the sentence "But you are doing far more than [your hypothesis]". Everything that has been carried out thus far (limited to phylogenetic presentation and rough MRCA calculations) was to address both the introduction and the working hypothesis.

    Your firmness in trying to the force the point of "weak hypotheses" and numerous other Non sequiturs is, therefore, unfounded.

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  12. That was the hypothesis. Re-read the blog entry. The introduction is a parable designed to break readers into a piece of writing.

    Again, by "your hypothesis", I am not just referring to your central hypothesis, but to all of your inferences in this blog entry. Maybe I should have used the word "inferences" rather than "hypothesis" for disambiguation.

    Again, re-read the blog entry.

    In case you missed it - Which you clearly have - Not only have I plainly stated the limitations of the STR MRCA calculations here, I made clear the MRCA calculations are an "extremely rough estimate" of a cluster's age.


    It is clear that I did not miss it, as I wrote "in addition to the ones you already mentioned" and "and even you admit that" in my above posts.

    Moreover, your lack of understanding the blog entry is evident in your use of the sentence "But you are doing far more than [your hypothesis]". Everything that has been carried out thus far (limited to phylogenetic presentation and rough MRCA calculations) was to address both the introduction and the working hypothesis.

    Your firmness in trying to the force the point of "weak hypotheses" and numerous other Non sequiturs is, therefore, unfounded.


    In the blog entry you say:

    "This preliminary evaluation indicates this Assyrian man's paternal ancestor shares Medieval genetic links with Anatolian Turkish, Iranian, Indian and Kazakh men, making a Central Asian Turkish connection likely once more."

    also this:

    "It has been brought to my attention that Tur_yQP_3, the Assyrian Q1b1a's best match, is in fact an Armenian individual. Although this does not compromise the conclusions reached above, it does serve as a reminder that not everyone in the Republic of Turkey is an ethnic Turk!"

    and this:

    "A recent exchange on a forum highlighted the likelihood of several Turk_yQP samples being Armenian rather than Anatolian Turkish. As above, the findings shouldn't impede too greatly on what has been discussed in this entry."

    These and the fact that you did not edit your age and source inferences and conclusions in the main blog entry after the Armenian findings indicate that you have a relatively high degree of confidence in your age and source inferences when, in fact, you should not after these Armenian and Assyrian findings. After those findings, this blog entry requires a serious editing.

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  13. Once more you're missing the point.

    MRCA calculations here = Very rough, far from accurate, only useful in confirming the relations are in the past few thousand years vs. many thousands.

    As explained in the Conclusion, the clusters formed at 17 STR's are very real and no other historical processes other than Turkish dominance over the past millennia can satisfactorily explain them.

    Additionally, I stated the thrust of my argument is based on the geographic distribution of certain clusters and the MRCA calculations have a far less significant role in this regard.

    Rather than nitpicking at my wording (and failing), I invite you to present your own explanation to why these Armenian Q's form STR-based phylogenetic clusters with Kazakhs, Hazaras, Iranians, Indians and confirmed Anatolian Turks if they were NOT the result of Turkish dominance over West Asia for the best part of a millennia. Though far from specific, the MRCA calculations confirm they are NOT the result of some contrived process of prehistoric demic diffusion.

    If you cannot provide any such explanation in your next response (should there be one) and continue to gloss over the entry with your nitpicking faux-analyses, the conversation has reached its' resolution on my side.

    Pay more attention to what I have written rather than taking the figures (which I stated were very rough estimates) to heart.

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  14. DMXX,

    I have no objection to the clusters you inferred. More importantly, I have no problem with your (and of many others BTW) idea that some of the haplogroup Q subclades in West Asia came to West Asia via the medieval Turkic migrations. In fact, I agree with that idea. But if a haplogroup Q subclade shows up in Armenians and Assyrians, two West Asian populations that show no autosomal and apparently uniparental connections to medieval Turkic migrations, I doubt that specific Q subclade is connected to any medieval Turkic migration. Also, the relevant regions of the world are not sampled enough to draw good distribution maps of the Q subclades in those regions. As for the MRCA calculations, even you admit they are far from accurate.

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  15. "This preliminary evaluation indicates this Assyrian man's paternal ancestor shares Medieval genetic links with Anatolian Turkish, Iranian, Indian and Kazakh men, making a Central Asian Turkish connection likely once more."

    Some iranians were assimilated into turkish or mongol tribes or troops (Khwarezmians, Alans, Sogdians etc).
    A central asia iranian origin for Q1b is also possible and fit maybe better than turkish?

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    Replies
    1. This is a possibility, certainly, but it might only apply with Cluster C of Q1b identified here. You will note Q1b is otherwise quite generalised. Thanks for your comment, it spurs the mind.

      Delete
  16. DMXX,
    Thanks for all your work investigating yDNA Q. This is my direct paternal line. Though for right now my brother has only tested at the 12 marker level, I am both intrigued and frustrated. Frustrated as there is not much out there on this haplogroup. Frustrated as my father never said we had Jewish roots, but said that the Mongolians had affected our ancestry. And believe me he would not have had any issues with having Jewish ancestry. He also said his paternal line was Lithuanian and Polish, but the name was lithuanian.

    Please keep an eye on investigating this haplogroup further. No one near as I can see on the internet seems to be actively investigating Q.

    I cannot wait to upgrade. My brother's matches are to Q, Q1,Q1b,Q1b1a. And I am sure he matches some of the people you mention in your study.

    Sincerely,
    AKO

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thank you for your comment; I am certainly keeping an eye on the haplogroup. Once more data comes out in the future, I'll hopefully be in a position to revisit Haplogroup Q and determine whether the inferences made in this investigation hold true years from now.

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  17. this hypothesis can not be correct since the presence of Y dna q in india/pak/afganistan predates Turkish invasions or migrations by a longg time The proof is that Q's in the region are still Hindus such as brahmin and khatri groups (I'm Q1b). If they were turks they would have definitely not been Hindus as hindus did not accept outsiders into their communities by far margin in the past. Please read here on how hindus controlled much of the finance all the way from Iran to Astrakhan in Russia. I think the "recent" migrations happened the other way around. It can be traced back all the way to the tocharian people in central asia who are extinct now because of the turkish migrations but for some reason they used the brahmi script which is native to India. They are not hindus but it shows that our influence and movement of people has been going on for 1000s of years along the silk route(vice versa) and also into the middle east.the migrations of the turkish people displaced much of the iranian peoples in the area who are very close linguistically to the indo-aryans of india. Its likely that the turks took captives from different groups as they passed by during their migrations. This is the reason why the group is very diverse genetically wheter in Anatolia or Xingxang.

    this is the link that talks about hindus in central asia and how they controlled much of the finance and trade. I'm 100% sure some stayed behind. India also has always had more people migrating out India then those coming inn as you can see in the mordern world as well. The population has always been very large compared to other groups. Even modern day afganistan and iran combined have a population of only 105 million people. Compare that to even pakistans who are also indo aryans which has 170 million people.

    http://books.google.ca/books?id=BkwsMTyShi8C&pg=PA43&lpg=PA43&dq=khatris+central+asia&source=bl&ots=A2z8N_85I7&sig=7cMTqZIFNx6TpkuR_tlCnbJqoKU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=E2jZUbbOO4e9igK794BI&ved=0CCsQ6AEwADgK#v=onepage&q=khatris%20&f=false

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    Replies
    1. Without realising, you are supporting the conclusion I reached in my investigation. Re-read the conclusion.

      Delete
    2. My apologies :) I don't think I was 100% sure of what I was reading when I left my reply lol. I'm still grasping this whole gene thing..great work you are doing tho. I think when you mentioned "The slim presence of Haplogroup Q in India on the other hand, as far as the current data indicates, is almost entirely of Medieval Turkic input, although the Subcontinent's position as a geographic nexus (much like Iran and Turkey) certainly open the possibility for exotic para-haplogroups to also exist there." this is when I thought Id mention that its there in Hindus in India as well so it can't be a medival turkish presense since the turks were muslims by that time.. anyhow I presume you are talking about Q1a-MEH2 as a turkish marker..look forward to seeing more blogs on Q..!

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